Curse

Epinephrine · Nov 16, 2005, 04:38 PM // 16:38

Ok game balance folks - you overlooked a category of skills to balance - the oft-neglected pet skills lineup.

I did a review of pet skills in this post:
http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...41&postcount=1

Some of the data may need a bit of cleaning up (based on current testing) but the analysis of pet skills is still correct.

Issues to address: A skill that is designed to be a damage source should out-perform a skill that isn't, and should be comparable in cost. Many of the skills that would seem to be great damage dealing skills are in fact no better (and often worse) than basic skills.

Predator's Pounce is a great example - 5 second recharge time and a nice +17 damage bonus, with an additional pet heal. It seems about right - good enough to be useable.

Compare it to Scavenger Strike or Melandru's Assault - both obviously designed to be damage boost, with conditions to the damage boost. Without the condition being present, predator's pounce easily outperforms these skills, in that it is half the cost, recharges faster than melandru's assault, and does the same basic damage as the scavenger's strike does at half the cost, just as often. Brutal Strike also fits this bill.

The damage per energy spent for the skills is (at 12 beastmastery):
PP=3.4 damage per energy
SS= 1.7 damage per energy
MA= 1.7 damage per energy
BS= 1.7 damage per energy

With the condition in place (let's assume an enchanted, crippled target at <50% health) the damage per energy is

PP= 3.4 damage per energy
SS= 3.4 damage per energy
MA= 3.4 damage per energy
BS= 3.4 damage per energy

So once you have the condition for the extra damage you are breaking even with the efficiency of the Predator's Pounce. That hardly seems like a good deal - you should be more efficient one would think, as the skills are designed to do damage - to have them less efficient without conditions and breaking even with seems like a bad move. In addition, the predator's pounce is providing healing the whole time, on top of the damage. Poor balancing.

What gives the damage skills an edge? Well, they cycle as fast as the predator's pounce does, so the do dump out more damage per second, if you have the energy to spend on it - doubling your energy output doubles the damage, if you can guarantee that the condition for triggering extra damage is there.

I don't think predator's pounce is overpowered, and wouldn't ask for it to be nerfed - rather, the pet-line is a bit weak as it is, and a slight increase in the efficiency of the damage based skills might encourage their use, as it is they don't quite make sense - I can see being less efficient without the condition provided they are more efficient with the condition. If the damage bonus for Brutal Strike, Melandru's Assault, Scavenger Strike was increased a bit (+22 damage for example rather than +17) it would bracket the efficiency of predator's pounce quite nicely; we'd have

The damage per energy spent for the skills is (at 12 beastmastery):
PP=3.4 damage per energy
SS= 2.2 damage per energy
MA= 2.2 damage per energy
BS= 2.2 damage per energy

With the condition in place (let's assume an enchanted, crippled target at <50% health then) the damage per energy is

PP= 3.4 damage per energy
SS= 4.4 damage per energy
MA= 4.4 damage per energy
BS= 4.4 damage per energy

This makes them a bit more efficient if you can keep the condition for activating up; At these levels they might be worth considering, as at least you gain in efficiency.

Otyugh Cry:
The usefulness of this spell is hampered in several ways:

1) the animals in the wild are weak, and attack for little damage.
2) despite the AL bonus, the animals in the wild die easily.
3) the animals in the wild are not even treated as "allies", you cannot enchant them or heal them, so should you desire to use them on the attack you are out of luck.
4) the animals lose interest very fast, not behaving like party members or allies at all - if the target you called goes down they will walk away, unless another member of the group happens to have attacked them.

How can you improve it? Ideas:

- Make it grant the animals protection based on your BM investment, but not tamed pets (it might get too powerful?) and a damage bonus as well (again, not pets)
- Make it treat the animals charmed by it as your pets - they are healed when you comfort animals, they get protected by your call of protection, they activate pet attacks when used (this option would allow them to blitz in and deal a bunch of damage, but they'll still die fast without real armour, and their damage would only come from the pet attack skill damage bonus pretty much)

Other options exist, I'm sure. If charmed animals lasted for the entire map it wouldn't even be overpowered - they are so weak that they die in seconds on any advanced map - you would need to adjust them to be moderately survivable if protected with spells and such, but being able to target them as allies would at least help.

Anyway, those are just starters, but the line could use some touching up - not a gigantic power boost, as it is a robust line in some ways, but some tweaking to balance it, without nerfing the few skills that are at usable efficiencies.

The Acolyte · Nov 16, 2005, 06:30 PM // 18:30

I don't necessarly agree with all of the above, but I definitely am dissapointed in the pet master char in this game. I think it would be great to see more pet masters playing. A format where they can tank really well, but not as effeciently as a warrior, and allows for the ranger to have some spell-like casting ability, though not nearly as powerful as E, Me, or Necro.

My two cents would be to setup commands to control when the pet attacks or doesn't attack, plus a hold command and a defend command. I'm not sure why these attribute were not assigned to the beast master in GW, when it's been a pretty strong char type via other MMORPGs. I might be missing something here, but I definitely don't see enough dedicated beast masters...

Acolyte Devathi

BrandonIT · Nov 16, 2005, 07:48 PM // 19:48

/agree that pet skills against conditions need a boost. I never have carried them, always opting instead for the Bleeding attack (which adds a long-term damage to my single energy use attack) and SOMETIMES the pet interrupt. Most of the other skills though I could never justify for the exact reasons you mention.

I would like to see the conditional pet skills get a real boost such as you recommend, to make them more worthwhile to carry.

The only thing I could see the devs thinking was that once the target started bleeding, you could just spam the Predator's Pounce / (Attack with Bleeding Bonus damage mod) / Predator's Pounce / ... back and forth every attack (much the way a Marksmanship ranger can spam Barrage fairly effectively every attack). So you can attack with a bleeding attack, then spam the two main damage dealing attacks back and forth every attack.

BUT this would require actually having the recharge times setup the same, and it would be nice if the energy costs were lower to actually ALLOW for this kind of spamming once a condition was present.

Just my thoughts.

Nighteye · Nov 16, 2005, 08:02 PM // 20:02

Yes, pet attack skills definately need a small boost, as they're currently a bit underpowered.

jibikao · Nov 16, 2005, 08:03 PM // 20:03

I am a sucker for beast mastery and every time I see a post about it, I just have to read it.

I've been a beast master every since I got the game (about 5-6 months ago). BM is the only build that I am MOSTLY familiar with.

I do agree with the poster. I've tried all kinds of pet attack skills and in the end, you are only choosing between:

Ferocious Strike
Disrupting Lunge
Predator's Pounce
(Honorable Mention: Brutual Strike)

Disrupting Lunge is probably THE pet attack skill that is extremely useful both in PvP and PvE. Predator Pounce is excellent in PvE and still good in PvP but most people would rather just choose 1-2 pet attack skills to leave more space for self defense (like Troll or Whirling Defense).

Brutual Strike is good for PvP to provide that one extra damage to kill the opponent before he's healed, although I agree with the poster that the damage/energy cost isn't any better than Predator's Pounce.

Predator's Pounce is definitely not OVER powered. It just gives BMaster a chance to heal the pet through health stealing and reduce the need for Comfort Animal. I mean we already have so little room for skills.

Miaming Strike sounds good but if your pet runs 20% (innate) and with call of haste on, you shouldn't need to rely on Maiming strike as much. However, pets attack very slow when the target is running and the usefulness of MS seems less and less.

10 energy cost isn't cheap too...

Melandru's Assult does good damage ONLY if the target is under enchantment. The 10s recharge is what I hate about this skill. I can't spam it like Predator/Disrupting and it requires a "condition". The energy cost is twice as much. Oh yeah, it does have that little AoE effect but I doubt it's worth mentioning.

Bestial Pounce is probably the WEAKEST pet attack skill of all. Knockdown is nice but the recharge is beyond terrible for this skill to be useful. 15s is just BAD. You can only knockdown when the target is casting spell so that's another "condition". Disrupting Lunge OWNS this skill no doubt.
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Part of the reason those "condition" pet attack skills seem even less important is that we are soooooooooooooooo limited with the number of skill slots we have left, so in the end, you probably only use 1-3 pet attack skills.

I guess you can try to form a pet team that do spike damage with Melandru's Assault and Scavenge Strike but here's a few problems:

1.) The damage from these condition pet attack skills are still way less "spike" in comparison to Warriors and even bow Rangers with the help of spirits. And since it requires a condition, the "spike" damage is not reliable at all.

2.) You need more than one pet to form "spike" damage but the sad thing is 3-8 pets will probably BLOCK each other and you'll have a choatic situation. I say probably max. 4 pets can attack the same target and there is no way you can form a good "spike" pet team with 4 pets on the same target.

(unless the master is doing something as well).

3.) Pet reaction is slow even with the help of Call of Haste. I am not too sure if it's "reliable" enough to form a spike team.

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The way I see it is this:

A.) Pets can't do enough damage like a warrior/bow ranger (pets don't have mods like +15% when Health is above 50% and you can't customize a pet to get 20% more damage).
B.) Pets can't inflict enough condition like a warrior/bow ranger.
C.) Pets suffers from reaction delay and poor AI (stuck somewhere).
D.) Pets are good at interrupting with Disrupting Lunge and it has faster speed than warrior but a bow ranger with Punishing, Savage and Distracting will probably interrupt better than the pet.

E.) Pets are FASTER!

I think E is something A.net should build upon. Pets are natually faster than normal humans so maybe A.net can increase pet's attack speed by A LOT MORE to make up its "short comings". A faster pet attack speed will give BMasters much better damage output and better control (disrupting and beastial pounce).

What do you guys think?

Epinephrine · Nov 16, 2005, 09:29 PM // 21:29

I think that the speed/damage of pets is fine as a base.

I agree that disrupting lunge and predatory pounce are the only pet skills that see regular use for me, with ferocious stike sometimes (some builds) and in fact maiming strike occaisionally (again, because it's a utility skill, and only if I am running a bow-less build and need a portable cripple - like an IW ranger/mesmer for example)

I don't think Disrupting lunge needs a boost, but I do think it's hard to purposely interrupt with this skill - that's why I just spam it - every time it recharges out it goes again - and I hit skills often enough. With call of Haste runing it has an average delay of about .75 seconds to striking, and as long as 1.5 seconds; working your reaction time into it it can only really be purposefully used vs 2 second casting spells or longer. I happily spam it however, to the point that I have in fact echoed it to have two copies. Able to hit with it ~8 times in 20 seconds you have a good chance of taking out some skills. Then again, it's my favorite skill in the lineup. I don't think it needs a boost, but the pure damage skills do.

I also agree that the knockdown on bestial pounce is lousy. The saving grace of disrupting lunge is its low cost and rapid recharge; otherwise it would be pointless. Bestial pounce has neither a fast recharge nor a cheap activation, and since it is conditional it seems hardly to be worth it. Change bestial ponuce to read :
Beastial pounce stirkes the target, for +5..+17 damage, knocking them down. If the target was fleeing or casting a spell they are dazed for 1..12 seconds.

and you have a useable skill.

jibikao · Nov 16, 2005, 11:05 PM // 23:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Epinephrine

I think that the speed/damage of pets is fine as a base.

I agree that disrupting lunge and predatory pounce are the only pet skills that see regular use for me, with ferocious stike sometimes (some builds) and in fact maiming strike occaisionally (again, because it's a utility skill, and only if I am running a bow-less build and need a portable cripple - like an IW ranger/mesmer for example)

I don't think Disrupting lunge needs a boost, but I do think it's hard to purposely interrupt with this skill - that's why I just spam it - every time it recharges out it goes again - and I hit skills often enough. With call of Haste runing it has an average delay of about .75 seconds to striking, and as long as 1.5 seconds; working your reaction time into it it can only really be purposefully used vs 2 second casting spells or longer. I happily spam it however, to the point that I have in fact echoed it to have two copies. Able to hit with it ~8 times in 20 seconds you have a good chance of taking out some skills. Then again, it's my favorite skill in the lineup. I don't think it needs a boost, but the pure damage skills do.

I also agree that the knockdown on bestial pounce is lousy. The saving grace of disrupting lunge is its low cost and rapid recharge; otherwise it would be pointless. Bestial pounce has neither a fast recharge nor a cheap activation, and since it is conditional it seems hardly to be worth it. Change bestial ponuce to read :
Beastial pounce stirkes the target, for +5..+17 damage, knocking them down. If the target was fleeing or casting a spell they are dazed for 1..12 seconds.

and you have a useable skill.

I think Disrupting is the only skill that other classes may be interested in. I can interrupt VERY WELL with Disrupting Lunge. Anticipation is the key and you definitely need Call of Haste. Well, Ferocious strike is great too but it's an elite and other classes may not like that. Predator Pounce is a great PvE skill.

I think Bestial Pounce should be:
5E, 10s recharge.

The knockdown effect is 3-4s instead of 1s. This way it's more worth it IMO. That 3s can be very useful against healing target, much like hammer warrior except the damage is way less.

I suggest either they increase pet attack speed or get rid of those reaction delays.

Edit: I don't think there are enough skills that cause Daze in this game. Maybe they should add that to Bestial Pounce or another pet attack skill. hehe.

Nighteye · Nov 17, 2005, 11:52 AM // 11:52

I think bestial pounce should be cheap with a fast recharge, like disrupting lunge, but with added energy loss and recharge time upon a successful knockdown. That way you can spam the skill without it becoming overpowered.

jibikao · Nov 17, 2005, 05:20 PM // 17:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nighteye

I think bestial pounce should be cheap with a fast recharge, like disrupting lunge, but with added energy loss and recharge time upon a successful knockdown. That way you can spam the skill without it becoming overpowered.

Yeah. I feel the power of pet attack is to spam those skills nonstop. That's how pet can do "decent" damage. Bestial Pounce's 15s recharge is just bad. I mean it's already harder to interrupt with pet skills than with bow skills.

The only problem I can see is spamming Disrupting + Bestial if both only have 5s recharge. lol That may be too overpowering.

I say either drop recharge to 10s or add 3-4s knockdown effect!

The Acolyte · Nov 17, 2005, 07:37 PM // 19:37

I find it interesting no one wants a more strategical/tactical approach to using the pets (where pet commands would come in handy). Wouldn't it be nice to single pull an enemy into the lurking traps of their pet, who was sitting there? Or wouldn't it be nice to have your pet stay back in defend mode even if you are attacking someone, in case someone tries to sneak up behind you and attack?

Totally agree with the discussions above on increasing (slightly) the strength of the pet attacks. I would also like to see more diversity between pet types as far as pluses and minuses. It's kind of annoying that there are two classes of pets....Spiders and all others (generalizing of course, but there is a clear distinction here).

Acolyte Devathi

jibikao · Nov 17, 2005, 09:03 PM // 21:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Acolyte

I find it interesting no one wants a more strategical/tactical approach to using the pets (where pet commands would come in handy). Wouldn't it be nice to single pull an enemy into the lurking traps of their pet, who was sitting there? Or wouldn't it be nice to have your pet stay back in defend mode even if you are attacking someone, in case someone tries to sneak up behind you and attack?

Totally agree with the discussions above on increasing (slightly) the strength of the pet attacks. I would also like to see more diversity between pet types as far as pluses and minuses. It's kind of annoying that there are two classes of pets....Spiders and all others (generalizing of course, but there is a clear distinction here).

Acolyte Devathi

Oh yeah, of course we would love to have "pet commands" but that's something we can only "dream" for. That will be TOO NICE for them to add that for the pet IMO. If they choose to add pet commands, that will be excellent! I won't complain! lol

The discussion here is mainly about the exisiting pet skills. Some just need some boost.

I would love to have more variety in pets but again, that's something I can only dream about. lol I don't think they would ever do it because:

1.) It's much easier to balance the game through Beast Mastery than through each individual pet.

2.) They probably don't have time for it.

3.) There are other issues that need to be addressed first before they do something fancy for the pet, such as pet stucking behind things, chasing but not attacking, blocking teammates and having reaction delay.